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Click to view Dr-NiKoN's profile Member 740 posts since
May 20, 2001
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Oct 17, 2003 12:13 AM

Come one now: AMD vs Apple(G5)

http://www.pcworld.com/news/article/0,aid,112749,pg,1,00.asp

There has to be something wrong with this comparison:
http://www.pcworld.com/news/article/0,aid,112749,pg,8,00.asp

Could the Macworld-tester maybe comment on how the dual-G5 was tested?
I sense some strangeness.

nikon

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Click to view Nobody's profile New Member 58,347 posts since
Oct 18, 2007
1. Nov 5, 2003 4:11 PM in response to: Dr-NiKoN
Re: Come one now: AMD vs Apple(G5)
Yeah, there is something wrong with it. Most of the systems are not equally compared. They didn't put the same hardware in each. For instance, both Macs they tested only have 128 MB of RAM as opposed to most PCs having 256 MB, which is a real hindrance on most modern applications. Furthermore, at least 4 of the systems they apparently tested have RAID hard drive systems in them, as opposed to the ones that the average user would have.

The biggest problem is that you can't really compare systems unless all hardware on both sides is of equal technology. Perhaps someday someone somewhere will figure that out and we'll get a truly equal test of all of them. No matter what, though, I'm never gonna give up Macs (unless they become as screwed up and corrupt as Windows )
Click to view JohnnyA's profile Member 550 posts since
Apr 27, 2001
2. Nov 6, 2003 3:50 AM in response to: Dr-NiKoN
Re: Come one now: AMD vs Apple(G5)
I figured the whining like this would start. "IT'S SO UNFAIR!"

Sure, there were 256MB graphics cards in some of the competing PC systems. But Apple doesn't sell a 256MB graphics card for its G5s. So -- should Macworld test Apple 'woulda-coulda' systems against PCs, or the real deal?

These tests were 'balls to the wall' all out speed demon tests comparing the latest available maxed out PCs against the latest maxed out G5s. Latest, given a two-month lag time between when Macworld goes to press and when it physically hits the mag rack and mailboxes.

I give Macworld and its chief editor, Jason Snell, huge credit for collaberating with PC World and making/publishing these meaningful and unbiased test results. Jason's team have proven that they live in the real world, and are willing to call it like it is and (pun) let the chips fall where they may.

Click to view Nobody's profile New Member 58,347 posts since
Oct 18, 2007
3. Nov 6, 2003 10:46 AM in response to: JohnnyA
Re: Come one now: AMD vs Apple(G5)
In reply to:<hr />
I give Macworld and its chief editor, Jason Snell, huge credit for collaberating with PC World and making/publishing these meaningful and unbiased test results.

<hr />

There is no such thing as unbiased or meaningful benchmarks, friend.
They are all merely guesses, and most of the time rather uneducated ones.
Click to view Jason Snell's profile Macworld Editorial 2,215 posts since
Dec 11, 2000
4. Nov 6, 2003 11:10 AM in response to: Nobody
Re: Come one now: AMD vs Apple(G5)
You're looking nice today, too, HebrewToYou.

All details of our Mac vs PC tests will appear in the December issue of Macworld, in fine mailboxes everywhere shortly (and on Zinio today!).


Jason Snell, Editorial Director, Macworld
Click to view JohnnyA's profile Member 550 posts since
Apr 27, 2001
5. Nov 6, 2003 12:14 PM in response to: Nobody
Re: Come on now: AMD vs Apple(G5)
Sometimes a bunch of guys and gals just simply whack it out of the park.
Calling it (as always) like I see it, Jason and company compiled a December issue of Macworld that is simply and utterly outstanding. Courageous. Critical. Opinionated. Even outrageous in its "dare to compare" approach. Written in a cool but informative style.
Bravo.
Click to view Nobody's profile New Member 58,347 posts since
Oct 18, 2007
6. Nov 6, 2003 6:55 PM in response to: Jason Snell
Re: Come one now: AMD vs Apple(G5)
Oh, pardon.

I didn't mean for that to come across as an insult towards the people who constructed the benchmarks. I was merely eluding to the fact that the most important factor in platform speed is the user. For what I need it to do, I'd pick my G5 over anything today. I would consider the computer faster because I can use it faster.

The problem I see with interplatform benchmarks is that it's very very difficult to find a center point -- a healthy medium, if you will -- which can balance the inherent architectural and interfacial differences. Which leads to this: I don't believe any number-crunching benchmark application gives reliable indications of speed.

I'm most certain that these tests were performed under strict labratory conditions and that the testers went to a great deal of effort. I just don't think you should ever put too much weight behind these things.
Click to view Chris Breen's profile Macworld Editorial 2,943 posts since
Dec 11, 2000
7. Nov 6, 2003 10:11 PM in response to: Nobody
Re: Come one now: AMD vs Apple(G5)
H2U, I think when you see the full article you'll have a better idea of how the tests were conducted and what they mean. The article makes it pretty clear that in most tasks where you had the hottest PC versus the hottest Mac, the PC performed these tasks more rapidly -- page scrolling, Quake frame rates, and MP3 encoding.

In this same issue Glenda Adams, the goddess of Mac game coding says "For games, megahertz are megahertz. It's very difficult to optimize a game -- especially a port of an existing game -- to use the Velocity Engine extensions, which is how you get great performance on Photoshop filters."

I believe the Mac is superior to the PC in a number of ways -- ease of use and integration chief among them -- but when it comes to getting some stuff done quickly (which is what this story was about) the PC clearly had the edge.

Chris
Click to view Nobody's profile New Member 58,347 posts since
Oct 18, 2007
8. Nov 6, 2003 10:28 PM in response to: Chris Breen
Re: Come one now: AMD vs Apple(G5)
Well, all I can say is that after reading the links provided I cannot come to the conclusion. When I read the full article you'll be sure to hear from me.

I, personally, find it a bit odd that they would use Quake to test frame rates on a G5. That game is a BIT old, don't you think? A more accurate test of frame rate might come from UT2k3 or America's Army, two games released not too long ago which would most likely provide more accurate results.

But maybe that's just me...
Click to view JohnnyA's profile Member 550 posts since
Apr 27, 2001
9. Nov 7, 2003 3:32 AM in response to: Nobody
Re: Come one now: AMD vs Apple(G5)
Hopefully, you'll see from the article that the Macworld tests aren't just skewed benchmark tests. Macworld and PC World made side-by-side comparisons of several actually-available maxed-out systems running the same apps. For me, this was a refreshingly honest approach, following years of "Apple Photoshop runs quicker on Macs than on PCs" comparisons that Macs always won. Plus, by declaring the G5 the fastest PC in the world at launch, Apple threw down the gauntlet when it was (inevitably) beaten.

I spent $10K on a G4 733 and 22" Cinema Display a few years ago. I am frankly undergoing a serious inner debate whether to jump ship and plow $6K-7K into a Falcon AMD 64-bit Windows system. The December issue of Macworld provides me with loads of food for thought.
Click to view Chris Breen's profile Macworld Editorial 2,943 posts since
Dec 11, 2000
10. Nov 7, 2003 8:16 AM in response to: Nobody
Re: Come one now: AMD vs Apple(G5)
In reply to:<hr />
I, personally, find it a bit odd that they would use Quake to test frame rates on a G5. That game is a BIT old, don't you think?

<hr />


Perhaps. Given the Glenda Adams comment -- that with games there's only so much you can do -- I wonder if you'd see much difference. It would be interesting to see if UT2k3 results differ much.

But in a test like this one, it seems to boil down to bragging rights. OK, at a resolution of 1600 x 1200 the PC gets 257 fps and the Mac gets 207. When I play the game on each system, am I going to see a discernible difference? I kind of doubt it.

Chris
Click to view Nobody's profile New Member 58,347 posts since
Oct 18, 2007
11. Nov 7, 2003 10:11 AM in response to: Chris Breen
Re: Come one now: AMD vs Apple(G5)
Very good point, Chris.
Not to insult Glenda Adams, but on my G5 I've noticed newer gaves run MUCH better on the system as opposed to older ones. For instance America's Army gets me much better frame rates than Unreal Tournament (original). This is because a) the port of UT to OS X kinda sucked and b) America's Army is a rather new game for the platform. I just think Quake is a bit outdated...

JohnnyA, if you paid $10000 for a G4 PowerMac WITH monitor then you got hosed.
Unless that figure also accounts for a plethora of external devices and a raid array, that was a BAD deal.

My dual2 G5 cost me under $3000 without a monitor -- and that's WITH AppleCare and an internal BlueTooth module.
That figure you posted is SOOO misleading.

And, please, by all means jump ship to x86.
If you truly believe you'll find a better computer in the Wintel world, you're welcome to try. Just don't come crawling back to the Mac 'cause I'm a be there saying "I told you so."

The Mac is what you make of it.
Click to view JohnnyA's profile Member 550 posts since
Apr 27, 2001
12. Nov 7, 2003 11:24 AM in response to: Nobody
Re: Come one now: AMD vs Apple(G5)
"That figure you posted is SOOO misleading."
Oh. Oh. I feel I'm being "personally attacked." Save me, Chris!
Just kidding.
Nope. I actually paid around $2.5K-$3K for the Cinema Display. And with a Gig of RAM and an SOA nVidia card and SCSI HD, at the time that G4 733 system was around $6K. Add the tax and shipping and it really did cost me around $10K. I didn't shop around. I shopped Apple.

Today, I'm looking at an AMD FX-51 or Pentium 4EE system - without monitor - and with everything I'd want it would cost me over $6K.
Click to view JohnnyA's profile Member 550 posts since
Apr 27, 2001
13. Nov 7, 2003 11:44 AM in response to: JohnnyA
Re: Come one now: AMD vs Apple(G5)
My system also included 3 years of AppleCare and it was, as I recall, the first or second G4 made. Best desktop and LCD around at the time. Best personal computer in existence. To this day, I don't feel ripped off. If you haven't experienced a 22" Cinema Display, you haven't experienced the limits of personal computing.

Click to view Chris Breen's profile Macworld Editorial 2,943 posts since
Dec 11, 2000
14. Nov 7, 2003 11:52 AM in response to: JohnnyA
Re: Come one now: AMD vs Apple(G5)
In reply to:<hr />
Oh. Oh. I feel I'm being "personally attacked." Save me, Chris!


<hr />


Don't worry, H2U is well aware of what happens when things get too personal. Let's stand down, boys.

Chris
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