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221 Replies Last post: Sep 17, 2006 7:30 AM by pdrayton   Go to original post 1 ... 3 4 5 6 7 ... 15 Previous Next
Click to view tallscot's profile Old Hand
tallscot
1,688 posts since
Jan 31, 2001
60. Sep 13, 2006 9:35 AM in response to: jmincey
Re: Analysts: iTunes, iTV form complete package
Quote:<hr />
"I want to download, view and delete."

I want to download, view, and burn to DVD for possible future viewing without my having to keep innumerable movies on vulnerable hard drive storage.

Now if I own the movie, why can I not burn it to DVD for my own personal, noncommercial viewing? I strongly dislike all these corporations telling me what I may or may not do with what I own in my own <expletive deleted> home.

It seems Apple is trying to rig the game to "encourage" us to purchase the overpriced iTV product (in order to view movies on TV screens). If consumers had the ability to burn to DVD, they would be less likely to purchase iTV.

<hr />


Jeff, are you sure we won't be able to back-up these files in a format that isn't playable on a standard DVD player? If it's a file in the Finder, you can drag it to a DVDR and burn it and then copy it back to your computer at a later date.
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Click to view jmincey's profile Old Hand
jmincey
3,964 posts since
Aug 27, 2004
61. Sep 13, 2006 9:43 AM in response to: d00d
Re: For a "transfer" gadget: $300?
"I think Dan and I both understand the convenience and ease of use that comes with these devices."

I understand the convenience too. Apple is essentially now doing for movies what it has already done for music and spoken word recordings, and I certainly recognize and appreciate the great value added in having a digital library in a single place -- a de facto database of digital media files at one's command. It's a great concept and I make full use of it where music is concerned.

My objection here is not to the concept nor even the raw technology but rather to the implementation and price. Have I not made this clear?
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Click to view tallscot's profile Old Hand
tallscot
1,688 posts since
Jan 31, 2001
62. Sep 13, 2006 9:44 AM in response to: MW Forums
Re: Analysts: iTunes, iTV form complete package
I would love to have an HD TiVo Series 3 box with 802.11n wireless and TiVo To Go software for OS X. Enough said.
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Click to view cuervogold's profile New Member
cuervogold
3 posts since
Jan 12, 2006
63. Sep 13, 2006 9:46 AM in response to: jmincey
Re: Unacceptable: No "Burn to Disk" Option
I concur but the way this is going the iPod should eventually be able to interface with the iTV or plug directly into any car or home entertainment system limiting that need. Does the new video iPod do 640 x 480 as well? What about movie rentals? Why couldn't iTunes/Quicktime add an expiration time into the video format after which the video will no longer play? I'd be more likely to purchase an iTV system if I could download a movie that expires for $2.00 and watch it on my TV, eliminating a trip to the video store.
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Click to view MacPCJustCreate's profile Member
MacPCJustCreate
671 posts since
Sep 1, 2004
64. Sep 13, 2006 9:54 AM in response to: jmincey
Resolutions
Quote:<hr />
I can purchase a movie on DVD and play it in high resolution on the DVD player I already own (and which is already connected to my TV)

<hr />


Do you have a HD-DVD or Blu-Ray Player? Otherwise the resolution of DVD ala MPEG2 is 720 by 480 which at about 500 lines is not HD. Granted MPEG2 DVD video can look great if care is taken, but it is not HD.

For more information see the great site:

http://www.dvddemystified.com/dvdfaq.html#2.7 (see quote from the DVD FAQ section 2.7 below)

Quote:<hr />
Resolution: In numerical terms DVD has 345,600 pixels (720x480), which is 1.3 times LD's approximately 272,160 pixels (567x480). Widescreen DVD has 1.7 times the pixels of letterboxed LD (or 1.3 times anamorphic LD). As for lines of horizontal resolution, DVD has about 500 whereas LD has about 425 (more info in 3.4.1). In analog output signal terms, typical luma frequency response maintains full amplitude to between 5.0 and 5.5 MHz. This is below the 6.75 MHz native frequency of the MPEG-2 digital signal. Chroma frequency response is one-half that of luma. Laserdisc frequency response usually begins to fall off at 3 MHz. (All figures are for NTSC, not PAL.)

<hr />


Of course the iTunes downloads at 640x480 have less resolution than standard MPEG2 DVD. This coupled with the DRM and the storage requirements and possibly not being able burn backups are why I am not only sticking with DVD, but are also why I am sticking with true Redbook CD-DA compact disk for as long as it lasts. DRM -- NOT!!!

iTunes Downloads to Date: 0; iTunes Downloads in the Future: Most Likely 0.

One more point I thought that audio and video was supposed to go to ever higher resolution and quality, however in the age of digital downloads due to bandwidth, storage, and other limitations the quality standard seems to be what's "good enough". Apple seems to be going backward by only offering 128 kbps .m4p AAC files (not lossless files) and 640x480 video resolution which is less than standard DVD.
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Click to view MacPCJustCreate's profile Member
MacPCJustCreate
671 posts since
Sep 1, 2004
65. Sep 13, 2006 10:12 AM in response to: warlock7
Re: Unacceptable: No "Burn to Disk" Option
Quote:<hr />
Sorry Jeff, the writing's on the wall. If you don't like it you don't need to be a consumer of the product.

<hr />


EXACTLY!

The writing may be on the wall for both CD and DVD, however it will be multiple decades before physical media completely disappears. In the meantime I am continuing to buy music on true RedBook CD-DA compact disk. DRM -- NOT!!!

I was hoping that Audio would go to higher resolution 24 bit/ 96 kHz minimum, but it looks like DVD-A and SACD are non-starters.

The good news is that music today is generally recorded at 24-bits and then dithered down to 16-bits for CD using very sophisticated dithering algorithms resulting in an apparent resolution for CD approaching 20-bits.

Many are still recording on 24 track analog using Dolby SR at 15 IPS and then transferring the tracks to Pro Tools for editing and then transferring back to 24 track analog for mix down to 1/2 inch 2 track analog that is then converted to digital using the best A/D converters available and then that is used as the CD master.

Apple currently only offers 128 kbps .m4p AAC files and 640x480 video. Hopefully they will be able to offer higher resolution audio (losslessly compressed) and video (HD @1080p) in the future.

Speaking of bandwidth how come you can get 100 Mbps in Japan for under $40 USD per month? Where are the $30 100 Mbps + connections in the United States?
http://www.digitalworldtokyo.com/2006/08/farewell_my_analog_friend.php
http://hardware.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=05/07/20/2013241&from=rss
http://www.edn.com/index.asp?layout=article&articleid=CA6347250
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Click to view keats007's profile New Member
keats007
7 posts since
Feb 1, 2006
66. Sep 13, 2006 10:12 AM in response to: jmincey
Re: For a "transfer" gadget: $300?
I have to agree with jm with regards to some of the implied suppositions that have been shown by Steve Jobs during the presentation yesterday. Yes, I would not mind having such technology at a lower cost or perhaps built-in to some future version of Apple hardware. How much are we willing to pay for ease of use? Just like people did on the eve of the first iPod, we all had our complaints and subsequently people voted with their wallet. I would expect people to do the same with this device. Who knows for sure if the final price has been settled or if there are multiple price points for various flavors of capability?

On review of the posts so far people have made inferences to technology and configurations in speculation of the final product. I have no idea what's under the hood, but could it have a built-in router? Sure. Let's have it stream multiple video streams to multiple displays. Could it have a DVR built-in? Perhaps a build to order model? Will HD be part of the package? Perhaps a satellite upgrade so I can stream media where ever I go in the world? I can dream like everyone else, but Apple can't read our minds so I hope someone from Apple is reading our posts and email diligently.
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Click to view MacPCJustCreate's profile Member
MacPCJustCreate
671 posts since
Sep 1, 2004
67. Sep 13, 2006 10:49 AM in response to: jdb8167
272?
Quote:<hr />
Sadly this is not quite true. I downloaded "Flightplan" as a test. It is 1.03 GB in size. The small size (relatively) is attained by having a resolution of 640x272--nowhere near 480 lines.

<hr />


Then how come Mr. Jobs claimed it was 640x480? If the true resolution is 272 lines then Mr. Jobs claim seems fradulent.
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Click to view MacPCJustCreate's profile Member
MacPCJustCreate
671 posts since
Sep 1, 2004
68. Sep 13, 2006 11:07 AM in response to: jmincey
Re: Analysts: iTunes, iTV form complete package
Quote:<hr />
Now if I own the movie, why can I not burn it to DVD for my own personal, noncommercial viewing? I strongly dislike all these corporations telling me what I may or may not do with what I own in my own <expletive deleted> home.

<hr />


It is not only the Corporations, but also the Law which is enacted by the Legislative Branck in the US and the intrepretation of the Law which resides in it's highest form with the Supreme Court. It's also the lobbyists who pay money on behalf of their political clients to influence the Law (pssst just slip this wording in here), thus saving them millions when they had paid (contributed) thousands to hundreds of thousands resulting in a ROI of anywhere from 10 to 1000 (not bad).

So do you also strongly dislike everyone in the expanded chain above as well?

Quote:<hr />
It seems Apple is trying to rig the game to "encourage" us to purchase the overpriced iTV product (in order to view movies on TV screens). If consumers had the ability to burn to DVD, they would be less likely to purchase iTV.

<hr />


Yes that's exactly it - LOCK-IN!!! Exactly how Apple Computer Inc. has locked in the iTunes Store and the iPod, while also allowing the iPod to not be completely locked in by allowing it to play other formats (.m4a; MPEG 1, Layer 3 so called MP3; WAC, AIFF, etc.).

For me I am sticking with DVD and true Redbook CD-DA compact disk. DRM & LOCK-IN NOT!!!!
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Click to view jmincey's profile Old Hand
jmincey
3,964 posts since
Aug 27, 2004
69. Sep 13, 2006 11:32 AM in response to: MacPCJustCreate
Re: Analysts: iTunes, iTV form complete package
"It is not only the Corporations, but also the Law..."

I know of no US law which prohibits a consumer from burning a movie to a DVD disk for his personal, noncommercial use in the privacy of his own home. If you DO know of such a law, please cite the relevant passage.
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Click to view celiawessen's profile New Member
celiawessen
48 posts since
Mar 9, 2006
70. Sep 13, 2006 12:03 PM in response to: MW Forums
Re: Analysts: iTunes, iTV form complete package
I think that before any kind of innovation as a machine or a service, the "iTV" is a business decision for Apple.

It is quite obvious that we will, shortly after the shipment of the iTV device, be able to purchase movies from the iTV interface itself (Of course, the iTV is just the interface. The actual transaction is done via iTMS on your computer).

This means, that consumers with the iTV will not be surfing the web to other online movie retailers. The iTV essentially guarantees a large marketshare of movie downloads by people who purchase the device. It is a way for Apple to attract consumers away from going to Unbox or even buying movies via cable/satellite PPV.

Just think of the simplicity of this device. It will be easier to buy movies through iTV than to register for Macworld forums.
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Click to view celiawessen's profile New Member
celiawessen
48 posts since
Mar 9, 2006
71. Sep 13, 2006 12:09 PM in response to: MacPCJustCreate
Re: Unacceptable: No "Burn to Disk" Option
Quote:<hr />
Speaking of bandwidth how come you can get 100 Mbps in Japan for under $40 USD per month? Where are the $30 100 Mbps + connections in the United States?

<hr />


Um, just look at the sheer size of the United States. There is 12 times more area per capita than Japan. If you're getting broadband in the middle of nowhere, you're getting a bargain.
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Click to view fishcove's profile New Member
fishcove
18 posts since
Jun 30, 2006
72. Sep 13, 2006 12:21 PM in response to: jmincey
Re: Analysts: iTunes, iTV form complete package
Quote:<hr />
"It is not only the Corporations, but also the Law..."

I know of no US law which prohibits a consumer from burning a movie to a DVD disk for his personal, noncommercial use in the privacy of his own home. If you DO know of such a law, please cite the relevant passage.

<hr />

Code:<hr /><pre>
US CODE Title 17, Chapter 12

1201 Circumvention of copyright protection systems

(a) Violations Regarding Circumvention of Technological Measures.
(1)
(A) No person shall circumvent a technological measure that effectively
controls access to a work protected under this title.
</pre><hr />
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Click to view MacPCJustCreate's profile Member
MacPCJustCreate
671 posts since
Sep 1, 2004
73. Sep 13, 2006 12:28 PM in response to: tallscot
Re: Analysts: iTunes, iTV form complete package
Quote:<hr />
Jeff, are you sure we won't be able to back-up these files in a format that isn't playable on a standard DVD player? If it's a file in the Finder, you can drag it to a DVDR and burn it and then copy it back to your computer at a later date.

<hr />


But are not the Apple Computer Inc. files are encoded with the H.264 Codec? DVD players only decode MPEG2 so the material would have to be transcoded (resulting quality???) before a playable DVD could be authored.

Seems like alot of work, why not just buy the DVD? The DVD can then be ripped stripping out the CSS to get to the Video_TS folder where one can do whatever they want with it. As matter of fact one great thing about standard DVD (not Blu-Ray or HD-DVD) is that the CSS encryption system is broken and one can strip it out and fair use the resulting file as they see fit.
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Click to view MacPCJustCreate's profile Member
MacPCJustCreate
671 posts since
Sep 1, 2004
74. Sep 13, 2006 12:31 PM in response to: jmincey
Re: Analysts: iTunes, iTV form complete package
Quote:<hr />
I know of no US law which prohibits a consumer from burning a movie to a DVD disk for his personal, noncommercial use in the privacy of his own home. If you DO know of such a law, please cite the relevant passage.

<hr />


Agreed, I know of no law and cannot currently provide a citation. Good catch!

What about the rest of the chain I outlined?
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