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156 Replies Last post: Aug 19, 2007 7:39 PM by griffman   Go to original post 1 2 3 4 5 6 ... 11 Previous Next
Click to view Nobody's profile New Member 58,347 posts since
Oct 18, 2007
45. Dec 9, 2006 4:03 AM in response to: MW Forums
Re: Microsoft makes a Basic mistake with Office 2007
Any chance to bring MacWrite Pro to the Mac OS X life? That was really an intuitive and great application.

That, together with Keynote, FileMaker Pro and Casady & Greene "Let's Keep It Simple Spreadsheet" (Let's KISS) or Informix Wingz spreadsheet, coupled with a built-in transparent compatibility engine based on Dataviz MacLinkPlus Deluxe would make it to forget once and for all the horrible Microsoft nightmare (including the Office suite).
Click to view artpease's profile New Member 6 posts since
Jul 6, 2005
46. Dec 9, 2006 4:56 AM in response to: Nobody
Re: Microsoft makes a Basic mistake with Office 2007
If MS has killed cross-platform compatibility, why is the MacBU even bothering with the expensive task of a UB Office? They won't generate enough revenue to pay the development cost. Enterprise won't buy it and neither will the home consumer.
Click to view KnotGullible's profile New Member 18 posts since
Dec 9, 2006
47. Dec 9, 2006 5:17 AM in response to: MW Forums
Re: Microsoft makes a Basic mistake with Office 2007
All this idle speculation hurts my head.

Give the facts as stated, in the article and by subsequent comments, There are only two Apple things that are SURE to happen:

1. TextEdit will get an update to read and write Word XML.
2. Pages will get an update to read and write Word XML.

These should happen before Office 2007 is released.

Anyone who regularly uses Adobe InDesign knows how great a word processor it is -- significantly more powerful than Word . . . except in the macro/VB department.

I would hope that The Pages Team is cheerfully preparing a Word-Killer version of Pages with Automator.

Can iCalc be far behind?

Keynote and Mail are all that's left and we know mail's getting an update in Leopard.

--Knotty
Click to view NaOH's profile New Member 87 posts since
Oct 4, 2004
48. Dec 9, 2006 6:33 AM in response to: MW Forums
Re: Microsoft makes a Basic mistake with Office 20
There are a few thoughts that occurred to me after writing my initial post on here, which I thought I would share.

Firstly: Effective and reliable cross-platform compatibility between MS Office files and whatever equivalent runs on the Mac, is essential for the Mac to be a player in the corporate arena.
This means not just being able to open MS Office documents, but also being able to use whatever custom scripting is in the document.

Secondly: Isn't Microsoft intending to demote VB and VBA in the next version of MS Office? I was under the impression that a .Net based technology was poised to take over the role that VBA currently holds.
If that is the case, why aren't MBU working to implement this new technology?

While I believe Microsoft would like nothing more than to be able to deliver a killing blow to Apple in the corporate arena, one of the reasons they were able to avoid being split up, is the fact that Apple does exist, and is considered viable competition. (Whatever that means.)
If Apple were to disappear from the corporate marketplace, I suspect Microsoft may have to face yet another monopoly investigation.
Click to view kill953's profile New Member 97 posts since
Sep 29, 2006
49. Dec 9, 2006 6:42 AM in response to: artpease
Re: Microsoft makes a Basic mistake with Office 2007
Quote:<hr />
If MS has killed cross-platform compatibility, why is the MacBU even bothering with the expensive task of a UB Office? They won't generate enough revenue to pay the development cost. Enterprise won't buy it and neither will the home consumer.

<hr />

Because Apple would take them to court under the anti-trust ruling and MS would lose big time. By producing yet another crippleware version of Office (like they have done for the past 10 years+), they can get away with saying "but we do make Office for the Mac" and Apple wouldn't have a leg to stand on, regardless of whether it is equivalent to the PC version or not.
Click to view griffman's profile Macworld Editorial 8,111 posts since
Jan 9, 2001
50. Dec 9, 2006 7:58 AM in response to: Clement
Re: Microsoft makes a Basic mistake with Office 20
"So, unlike Rob, I think this is a brilliant move that microsoft is doing here"

I think you sort of missed my big-picture perspective on this: I completely agree with everything you wrote. The death of Mac Office will save Microsoft tens of millions of dollars a year, plus increase sales of the XP/Vista version of Office, along with XP/Vista itself. It's a win-win for Microsoft. But I'm not Microsoft. I'm a consumer.

And from my consumer perspective, this is an incredibly stupid, dumb, lame thing to do. In short: they're introducing an "upgrade" that removes functionality from thousands of existing Office documents. It will probably require many thousands of Mac users to purchase about $700 (list) of new software, none of it designed for the Mac, just to gain functionality they already have today! Tell me again how, from the consumer's perspective, this is a good thing? That was my point.

-rob.
Click to view mdawson's profile Old Hand 3,028 posts since
Aug 31, 2004
51. Dec 9, 2006 9:50 AM in response to: MW Forums
Re: Microsoft makes a Basic mistake with Office 20
I find it disturbing how many people on this thread do not seem to get it. Anyone that believes that VBA support in Office:Mac is unimportant and that running Office for Windows in virtualization through Parallels or natively in Boot Camp is the ultimate solution to running Office on a Mac is either nave, living in a fantasy world or plain stupid. Sorry if anyone take that as an insult, but it needed to be stated. Microsoft knows exactly what they are doing by dropping VBA support for the Mac and it is nothing short of puerile logic to believe that this move is in any way a positive for Mac users.

First and foremost, Office compatibility is a big deal for the Mac. While many on this thread have proposed that they can live Microsoft-free on their Macs, the simple fact of the matter is that we do live in a Windows-centric world and Microsoft Office is not something that most Mac users can do without whether they prefer to use it or not. Until there is a dramatic shift in the market share of productivity suites, Office:mac needs to exist and it needs to be compatible with the Windows version.

Scripting capabilities are also very important and Microsoft has been very lackluster in that department. While some erroneously believe that VBA is not used extensively anyone that has ever taken the time to peruse an Excel user forum and browse the Macro/VBA threads will easily see that VBA, particularly in Excel, is very important. I, and many others in my department, use VBA all of the time to automate spreadsheets. In fact, the Bioresources Engineering Department, from which I received my Bachelors Degree, added a required course in Visual Basic five years ago to the curriculum because they found it to be a rsum booster for the engineering technology students. The director of my current graduate program, who also teaches courses in engineering tech, realized how powerful Excels scripting capabilities were as a data processing tool and he now strongly recommends that operations research grads learn VBA to bolster their rsums along with their SAS skills.

In the past 2+ years of graduate school I have developed several useful VBA scripts, some to the point of software development:
  • A project for our Cooperative Extension group that allowed them to conduct studies on ammonia emissions from litter in poultry houses with Jones-Hamilton. The software provides daily, weekly and overall flock grow-out ammonia emissions from sensors that take readings every minute; that is 10,800 data records per week or 60,480 to 70,560 data records per flock. UDCE is still using this software for their litter experiments.
  • For our research in poultry depopulation using fire-fighting foam (AVMA and USDA approved 6 NOV 2006) an accelerometer and ECG equipment were used to track animal vital signs during experimental trials. As more data points were generated per bird over the five-minute test period than Excel can graph, I wrote a program that would filter the waveforms down to less than 32,000 data points so that charts could be recreated in Excel and analyzed.
  • For a case study in optimization my project partner and I developed a software package that could be used by coaches to make dynamic best player selections in childrens basketball leagues that require all team members get court time.
  • For another class assignment functionality was added to an Excel workbook that converts a data set into a CSV file for transfer into SAS for linear regression analysis and two other data setstraining and verificationfor use in neural network software. The latter required splitting the base data set into two sets via random selection and also includes the ability to add lagged data sets. The new functions are accessed through Excel menus and appear to be part of the application. That program has been and is still being used by subsequent operations research graduates in their neural network seminar and they are required to view and understand the underlying code.
These projects could have been done without automated spreadsheets, but as such the analysis that these programs perform would not be usable by persons unfamiliar with the ins and outs of Excel, they would take much longer to perform their analyses, would often not be able to easily import and process numerous data sets and most importantly would be more prone to erroneous computations.

Just in the past two weeks I had to analyze a huge data set for a research paper that would have taken me a month or more to complete if I could not have written a macro to do the calculations automatically. Also, because the macro was written in VBA it works on my Mac at home where it was authored and on the Wintel PCs in my lab where others needed to be able to review my work. Upon seeing my report to fulfill my course requirement for my independent study, the director of my grad program now wishes me to alter the paper for submission as a refereed paper. To do so, I will need to make some adjustments to the cost analysis using shorter timer periods, effectively doubling the size of the analysis. Where it not for the fact that I was able to automate the calculations, what now requires a tweak of two worksheets and a minor modification of my VBA codeall of which can be done in a day, including the modifications to the paperwould easily become several days of work just to insure that the new cost analysis tables are correctly computed.

Applescript and Automator work well in their own rights, but those technologies are not available on Windows and had I been able to and chose to automate my spreadsheets with those technologies, I would be very much SOL when it came time to present my work to the professor for whom I did the research. By, the flawed logic that Apples scripting technologies could simply replace VBA as a viable alternative, I could have just as well used REALbasic to create my macros given that REALbasic is cross-platform. Of course, while Office:mac supports using REALbasic scripts, Office for Windows does not and most likely never will quite on purpose.

Where writing scripts has save me work countless times, as I often process large data sets, Microsofts half-ased support of VBA on the Mac has made cross-platform usage of VBA troublesome. While most of my purely computational VBA programs work well across platforms, any software that I have built upon Excel to make it easier for clients to process multiple data sets of the same type tend to break on my Mac. Why? Because Microsoft has opted to not support enumerated types in VBA on the Mac nor add that one simple feature from as far back as Office 98 for Mac. Given that enumerated types are a fairly standard feature in most contemporary high-level programming languages, it is inexcusable for it to not be supported other than to break complex scripts authored on Wintel PCs when one attempts to run them on a Mac. It would be different if I were talking about support of Windows-only technologies like ActiveX, but enumerated types are not platform-dependent.

Now to those that erroneously think that running Office for Windows through virtualization is all that is necessary, here is only a few reasons why you are completely wrong:
  • Mac users are Mac users because they do not wish to use Windows.
  • The whole reason for the MBU was to create Microsoft applications that operate as Mac software is expected to work. Office for Windows does not use a Mac-centric UI and that very difference was the whole crux of the Word 5 fiasco and the reason the MBU came into existence. Mac users (rightfully) expect Mac software to look, feel and function as Mac software.
  • Just because Macs can now run Windows in virtualization does not translate into Mac users wanting to run software that has been available for the Mac in Windows. If that were the case they would have never bought Macs in the first place. I guess you guys completely missed the several posts about concerns of developers doing this very thing and trivializing the Mac platformthat is obviously Microsofts ultimate goal.
  • Running Office for Windows on a Mac forces Mac users to spend and additional $200 to $300 on software because all Mac users are not jumping on the virtualization bandwagon, nor do they need to given how they use their Macs. If Mac users are forced to buy the Windows version of Office then than means they also have to buy a copy of Windows even if they had no intention of running any other Windows-only software. It is bad enough that Mac users have to spend as much to buy Office:mac as they would to buy a copy of Office Professional Edition for Windows given that Office:mac lacks an entire application plus some, but to have to spend an additional $200 to $300 to run the exact same software is unacceptable.
  • This move sets a bad precedent that other software developers will be watching very closely. If Microsoft bails on the Mac platform, you can best believe that other developers will use the economies of scale and virtualization arguments to the same end.
  • As of now, Intel-based Macs make up a very small portion of the Macs in use and that will be the case for the next few years. Therefore, virtualization will not be a reality for most Mac users for quite some time. The Intel transition is just shy of a year in the making.
  • And, one of the killer app points for many switchers is the fact that Office is available for the Mac. That availability is for many a huge make or break point in the decision to jump the Windows ship. If they are given the impression that they are going to have to deal with Windows anyway, then there is no compelling reason for their next computer to be a Mac. People may be willing to stop putting up with Windows, but Office is too deeply entrenched for just about anyone to abandon it given that for most peoples basic needs, Office works just fine.
Along with the decision to drop VirtualPC, instead of transitioning it into a virtualization product, the decision to drop VBA is just another step in weakening Office:mac, intentional or otherwise. Apple has been the golden egg as of late and Microsoft is not having it. Given that they got away with continuing with business as usual in the US, there is nothing to stop Microsoft from reversing its position on the Mac market. Where Microsoft relied on shear market dominance in the past they can no longer rest on that laurel as numerous, albeit a minority compared to the overall numbers of Windows users, continue to dump Wintel systems in favor of Macs. I, like the author, see this decision as a pre-emptive strike against the ever growing popularity of the Mac and the enlightenment of the masses to the fact that Microsoft has been pulling the wool over their eyes since the hype that was known as Windows 95.

Hopefully, someone out there is developing a kick-a office productively suite that can open existing Mac and Windows Word, Excel, PowerPoint and Access files, but that blows away Microsoft Office. Said app should also support cross-platform scripting capabilities that blow away VBA; I am sure that REAL software would be more than willing to oblige any such developer in that area. Microsoft is obese with power and it is long overdue for a competitive b:oh slapping into humility.


“Cannot run out of time. There is infinite time. You are finite. Zathras is finite. This is wrong tool.” 2.3GHz Power Mac G5/4GB/500GB HDD/OS X 10.4.11/30-inch ACD, 60GB iPod (Color)
Click to view beto's profile New Member 38 posts since
Nov 17, 2006
52. Dec 9, 2006 10:23 AM in response to: MW Forums
Re: Microsoft makes a Basic mistake with Office 20
A more compelling reason for Apple to make a spreadsheet app in the iWork suite, and why not?, make an office suite in steroids for the enterprise, everyone one will be happy and microsoft can worry about it. If Apple can't maybe other mac developer can do it (ommnigroup?).
Click to view Peter Cohen's profile Macworld Editorial 4,220 posts since
Feb 5, 2003
53. Dec 9, 2006 10:53 AM in response to: beto
Re: Microsoft makes a Basic mistake with Office 20
While I agree that Apple should make iWork more robust than just preso and page layout software, and undoubtedly will do so over time, I'm not sure that an Apple-grown solution is the right answer. Corporate finance long ago standardized on Excel. Unless it works and acts the same way -- macros, VB and all -- it's unlikely to gain much traction at all among the bean counters who Microsoft's decision to depreciate VB in Mac Excel is likely to affect the most.
Click to view Grapho's profile Enthusiast 1,389 posts since
Aug 30, 2004
54. Dec 9, 2006 11:10 AM in response to: mdawson
Re: Microsoft makes a Basic mistake with Office 20
I don't think Apple is just going to take this sitting down. Just look how they stood up to the likes of Adobe, Adobe responded by creating Light-room (although I think it was already in the works), and killing Premier (Which was already obsolete). This same issue is exactly what motivated Apple years ago when Apple and MS signed some kind of a deal where Macs would come with EI pre-installed and MS would keep developing Office.I think the gloves are coming off and Apple will have to address this issue internally by creating their own solution. Although if a 3rd party solution was good enough it would also stand to make a lot of money. I think we will see a big announcement this Mac world. It's not like Apple did not respond to MS with the development of Safari. It literally killed EI for the Mac. Keynote is another good example and Pages could grow to cover the void left by Word.
Click to view IndyJeff's profile New Member 37 posts since
Dec 2, 2005
55. Dec 9, 2006 11:35 AM in response to: MW Forums
Re: Microsoft makes a Basic mistake with Office 20
There are other issues working against the Mac in business. VBA support in Office ranks pretty far down the list.

At the top of the list is the lack of a full Outlook client. Entourage suffices, but it offers nowhere near the full functionality of Outlook.

Also at the top of the list is the issue of IT support. Companies want standardization, and Mac IT experience is very hard to come by (especially if you're not on the west coast of the United States).

Apple also shows no interest in pushing the Mac platform in corporate life. Apple offers practically nothing that is suitable as a general business desktop. So why are you singling out Microsoft?
Click to view hayesk's profile Member 710 posts since
Aug 7, 2004
56. Dec 9, 2006 11:47 AM in response to: osxfoundry
Re: Microsoft makes a Basic mistake with Office 20
Quote:<hr />
I don't think it is a big issue and here is why:
- All new mac runs Intel and you can either boot in Windows or buy parallele and have Excel or MS Office run on top of your Mac.

This is a win-win for both party. MS does not have to support the Mac Office version anymore while Mac user can still run MS Office.

<hr />


How is this a win-win? Rebooting into Windows or even using Parallels for a major application is NOT acceptible. Why even use a Mac at all if you have work in Parallels all day? I don't know about you, but I bought a Mac because I want to use Mac software - not Windows software.

This was one of my concerns when Apple switched to Intel. People would think Parallels or rebooting was acceptable, and PC software vendors would stop producing Mac software - thus eliminating the reason to use a Mac.

Imagine if Adobe discontinued Photoshop for Mac. Would you claim "It's ok, just use it in Parallels?"
Click to view scotts13's profile New Member 156 posts since
Aug 30, 2004
57. Dec 9, 2006 12:45 PM in response to: iron_chef
Re: just for yucks, apple should...
Quote:<hr />
just for yucks, apple should release Pages for WIndows, keynote for windows, and their spreadsheet for windows and charge less than that bloated office.

<hr />


Apple for years offered an excellent and very inexpensive version of AppleWorks 6 for Windows. For some reason this was only for educational customers, but I run it to this day. When schools said they wanted a cross-platform suite but felt Office for Mac was too expensive, I suggested they standardize on AppleWorks. It would even work with almost all Office documents. I got nowhere, because it was argued while they could "standardize" on AW, it still wasn't THE standard.
Click to view macnews's profile Member 242 posts since
Jan 11, 2005
58. Dec 9, 2006 1:01 PM in response to: griffman
Re: Microsoft makes a Basic mistake with Office 20
Great article - very well thought out in your arguments. I also happen to like the stuff you did in your prior job(s) - those finance things are a load of fun! Then again, that is what I do!

Anyway, I agree the cross platform issue could be huge. I don't think many people would notice but all it takes is "office isn't 100% compatible on the mac with the window's version" to scare some people off from buying a mac. Even if the percentage compatible is 98% do you think a sales person will mention this? Not unless they are in an apple store!

The corporate culture also dictates a lot of this. I use the software at work so I can now use it at home. Since the late 90's cross platform has been the rule and a main reason why I think mac sales are now on the up rise. Enough years have gone by for the general public to understand they can do almost anything on either platform.

Now, what we might see as a solution is something a bit better than parallels. I think there is a company that may already be doing this, but imagine being able to load windows software on your mac and run it just fine. Basically, parallels w/o having to start up windows. You just start the app and it runs fine - perhaps slightly slower for larger apps like games but just fine for something like word or excel. Not an ideal solution but better than parallels and better than losing functionality you might need for your work situation.
Click to view webraider's profile New Member 150 posts since
Apr 17, 2004
59. Dec 9, 2006 1:32 PM in response to: MW Forums
Re: Microsoft makes a Basic mistake with Office 2007
#1 Micorosoft is killing VB off Period.... vb.net will be the next thing if nothing else... Even windows people know that. Hopefully (and likely) will see VB.net on the mac. Applescript is a temp work around adn Microsoft nor Apple would put alot of hours into programming something that's dead... Face it and start using somethng else because you're eventually going to have to

#2 Openoffice, neo Office or a solution from Apple is going to have WORSE compatibilty with Office than the next version of Office for the Mac. Sure open office may open a typical simple, word document but you're going to have the same VB issues with it or a solution from Apple... This is unless Document compatibility with MS Office isn't an issue for you at all.

#3... If VB is so important to you (people are slow to let go of dying methods)... then keep 2004 and wait for the next upgrade when it dies out of the windows version. (will die slower than the mac version will... but it's coming)