Quantcast
You are not logged in, click here to log in.
39 Replies Last post: Sep 17, 2007 6:29 PM by piccologato   Go to original post 1 2 3 Previous Next
Click to view piccologato's profile New Member 74 posts since
Feb 12, 2007
15. Sep 15, 2007 6:10 AM in response to: leicaman
Re: Analysis: Macs on the network, time to panic?
Macs are easy to take apart unless you are talking about a 12 or 13 inch laptop. Then it is not difficult but there will be a number of screws to get to some innards.
Click to view alansky's profile Member 348 posts since
Jul 14, 2004
16. Sep 15, 2007 9:53 AM in response to: MW Forums
Re: Analysis: Macs on the network, time to panic?
This is nonsense. If all those IT guys were smart enough to realize what a piss-poor choice Windows PC's really were from the get-go, then they'd realize that supporting a stable full of Macs is a piece of cake by comparison. Macs don't play nice with the PC's? Complain to Microsoft! Let's not even get into the fact that Macs don't need to be repaired nearly as often as PC's. Much ado about nothing.
Click to view alansky's profile Member 348 posts since
Jul 14, 2004
17. Sep 15, 2007 10:00 AM in response to: piccologato
Re: Analysis: Macs on the network, time to panic?
The real panic was that if we could all use one of those new fangled graphical interfaces and if computing didn't require knowing DOS, we wouldn't need these IT people. They quite literally had a stake in keeping us ignorant and computers difficult to use. StevenRKeller

The same attitude still prevails today among independent computer support techs as well as IT staff. Just ask anyone who's ever had to call a professional to fix a home computer. In my experience, the number one complaint among the clients of these "professionals" is that they don't explain anything. They fix the problem but leave the client as clueless as ever. Afterall, if you give the client more information, he might not need to call you as often! It's no wonder that guys who are smart enough to own big fancy houses turn into blubbering idiots when they sit down in front of the computer to explain the problem they're having. Everything in the PC universe has conspired since the beginning to instill a belief in the public at large that computers are complex and difficult to deal with. This is sick.
Click to view folklore's profile Member 379 posts since
Aug 9, 2005
18. Sep 15, 2007 11:00 AM in response to: alansky
Re: Analysis: Macs on the network, time to panic?
Quote:<hr />
This is nonsense. If all those IT guys were smart enough to realize what a piss-poor choice Windows PC's really were from the get-go, then they'd realize that supporting a stable full of Macs is a piece of cake by comparison. Macs don't play nice with the PC's? Complain to Microsoft! Let's not even get into the fact that Macs don't need to be repaired nearly as often as PC's. Much ado about nothing.

<hr />


Folks in this thread keep talking like it's some sort of IT pro conspiracy that keeps Macs out of the enterprise. That's just not true. It's cost.

The biggest problem is still software compatibility. Incompatible software is costly. Even with MS Office, there are small incompatibilities that are often critical flaws (e.g., different pagination of a document in Word 2004 v. Word 2007). We can say that's Microsoft's fault all we want, but it doesn't change the fact that businesses don't care whose fault it is. Their software just needs to work.

And it gets worse. In the enterprise, their custom software may not work on the Mac platform. In my university environment, SPSS (statistical software) has a Mac version, but it hasn't traditionally had feature parity with the PC version - and it's a Java port that's dog slow. And ArcGIS (geographic analysis software) simply doesn't have an equal on the Mac platform on the analytic side.

And it gets even worse. Though there are alternatives available to some software packages, everyone I collaborate with is a PC user, and we need to share files.

So, even though I'm a Mac user, I still run Windows quite a bit - usually under Parallels - just so I can work with everyone. That adds $80 (Parallels) plus whatever a stand-alone license of Windows costs to the price of my Mac. Not to mention time to figure out how to work with PC users.

I'm willing to bear those costs to have the beautiful machine that is my MacBook Pro. But if I were an IT director for a large company, I'd pass. The benefits of the Mac just don't outweigh the costs, especially if you're talking about having to support a multi-platform environment.
Click to view heisetax's profile Member 487 posts since
Oct 2, 2003
19. Sep 15, 2007 11:30 AM in response to: montgomery_burns
Re: Analysis: Macs on the network, time to panic?
Quote:<hr />
One important issue that is not mentioned is ease of servicing Apple hardware. Of all the major computer manufacturers, Apple imacs and laptops are the most difficult and time consuming computers to take apart. Replacing even the most basic components requires totally taking the whole computer apart and stripping everything down to bare metal. PC oriented IT staff are in for a rude awakening if they expect to simply start taking Macs apart like any other PC. People like to mention AppleCare, but simply having a warranty does not make the hardware any easier for a technician to take apart. Dropping off Macs at an Apple retail store inside a shopping mall is not enterprise support. For far too long, Apple has shown total disregard for hardware serviceability. Having thin, shiny imacs means nothing if your technicians can't repair them easily. Corporate IT managers considering adding Macs should talk to an Apple account representative and demand hardware that is easy for their technicians to take apart and service. They should arrange for an Apple technician to come over and demonstrate taking apart an imac or MacBook Pro in front of the IT staff. And then watch the Apple tech promptly get laughed out of the building.

<hr />



I was talking to a lady that has a computer hardware support company in Western Iowa. The reasons you mentioned plus the use of non-standard hardware layout meant that work was much more difficult to perform. In her area she said that she had more Mac problems than problems with other computers. Apple has gotten themselves into this problem by putting looks ahead of servicability.

I will not purchase another 15" or 17" Mac portable until Apple corrects the extra difficult items they put into changing hard drives. They have made all parts of working on the AL PowerBooks & all Intel Mac Pros much more difficult than it needs to be. In my TI PowerBook I changed my hard drive at least once a year. This kept the hard drive fresh with no hardware or software problems. Also size was updated on a regular basis. The Intel Mac Book has the simplest way to change hard drives. This means that Apple can make computers that can have items easily changed. That doesn't mean that other items can be easily changed & repaired.

Like most Mac Users I like a nice looking Mac, but as a former Navy electronics tech I like my hardware to be easily serviceable. Along with other service techs & corporate IT departments I hope that Apple will start making an easily serviceable computer.

Bill the TaxMan
Click to view lwdesign's profile Member 455 posts since
Sep 28, 2005
20. Sep 15, 2007 11:41 AM in response to: MW Forums
Re: Analysis: Macs on the network, time to panic?
I think it's high time Apple came out with, and promoted, an enterprise strategy, along with at least one inexpensive small tower model that can be easily opened and serviced by removing a few screws. Think of a cross between a Mac mini and a Mac Pro, possibly half the size of the current Mac Pros, with at least 4 RAM slots and one or two expansion card slots, all easily accessible. Make it inexpensive enough that corporations can justify the expense, and you'd have a wonderful dual-boot machine that would be easy to service. It would be a winner.

Then Apple should start heavily promoting its server solutions and come out with a blade system. That would show enterprise users that Apple is serious about injecting OS X into multi-platform business environments.

The positive note of this article is that the writer feels Macs are now such a growing force that IT managers can't afford to ignore them anymore. IT can no longer dictate what its employees use as there is too much of a groundswell of Mac adoption. This is GOOD news!
Click to view SPOOF's profile Member 217 posts since
Jun 9, 2004
21. Sep 15, 2007 2:43 PM in response to: montgomery_burns
Re: Analysis: Macs on the network, time to panic?
Quote:<hr />
One important issue that is not mentioned is ease of servicing Apple hardware. Of all the major computer manufacturers, Apple imacs and laptops are the most difficult and time consuming computers to take apart. Replacing even the most basic components requires totally taking the whole computer apart and stripping everything down to bare metal. PC oriented IT staff are in for a rude awakening if they expect to simply start taking Macs apart like any other PC. People like to mention AppleCare, but simply having a warranty does not make the hardware any easier for a technician to take apart. Dropping off Macs at an Apple retail store inside a shopping mall is not enterprise support.

<hr />


The most commonly changed part, RAM, is much more accessible then on most PC's, even in the mentioned systems. One can't compare an all-in-one system to a multiple unit system for serviceability. PC all-in-one machines are every bit as annoying to service.

AppleCare actually is rather good service, especially on laptops which are the most common. Overnight to and overnight back, completely paid for by Apple. AppleCare on a server, a technician will be out with spare parts on the same day once you've done some troubleshooting. I've experienced this, and I work on them often at many clients. Serviceability is not an issue, especially when I can simply clone the machine or move the user account to another machine with no ill effects, and let the person keep working. This process takes very little time, and even less interaction to do.

Sure, trying to rip out an optical drive and replace it is more of a pain on a mac laptop than some PC laptops...but go ahead and start working with the smaller ones...and you'll find them every bit as annoying on the PC side too. And they usually won't replace it for free, overnight, like Apple will.
Click to view tjustin7's profile New Member 100 posts since
Jun 26, 2005
22. Sep 15, 2007 9:03 PM in response to: MW Forums
Re: Analysis: Macs on the network, time to panic?
Quote:<hr />
Computerworld looks at whether the Mac will gain more of a foothold in corporate networks.

<hr />


I think one of the problems that might need to be addressed is the issue of licenses.
For example, Let's say a company buys 10 Photoshop licenses. Five copies of PS for Windows, Five copies of PS for OSX. Now, let's say all 5 Windows users quit, and they hire on 5 new new people that want to use OSX.
Is there a away to convert those Photoshop Windows licenses over to OSX?

I guess the question is: how interchangable are licenses when mixing platforms like this? I know logically you might say "you bought 10 copies, so use 10 copies", but is that actually legal?

Anybody know?
Click to view MacGeek1955's profile Member 278 posts since
Nov 28, 2005
23. Sep 15, 2007 9:58 PM in response to: leicaman
Re: Analysis: Macs on the network, time to panic?
I've found in my experiences that Macs are much easier to maintain than Windows PCs. Mac Pros and older G4s and G5s are much easier to perform most common hardware changes than any Windows PCs I've ever used. iMacs could be used but unlike the typical Windows PCs, it would be harder to cannabalize them for parts, but in general iMacs have a lot fewer problems than typical PCs.
Click to view fibercut's profile Member 160 posts since
Dec 1, 2001
24. Sep 16, 2007 7:23 AM in response to: heisetax
Re: Analysis: Macs on the network, time to panic?
Quote:<hr />
Like most Mac Users I like a nice looking Mac, but as a former Navy electronics tech I like my hardware to be easily serviceable. Along with other service techs & corporate IT departments I hope that Apple will start making an easily serviceable computer.

Bill the TaxMan

<hr />


Well I guess you never looked into a Mac Pro.
Click to view DisabledTrucker's profile Member 230 posts since
Aug 1, 2007
25. Sep 16, 2007 8:14 AM in response to: MW Forums
Re: Analysis: Macs on the network, time to panic?
I have long been saying that Mac will replace Windows in the next, (well now about 5-6) years. Those that are whining about the lack of software for it, should be doing something about it instead of whining. Sure it doesn't have Word, who cares there are a lot better applications out there then Word for word processing, even on Windows! They have problems that a 4 year old doesn't when it comes to setting one up, come on people quit thinking like idiots and start realizing you're not working with garbage anymore. Start thinking in terms of standards and not in proprietary software, and then you'll finally get it! Windows has had it's run on the desktop and people are tired of it not working and full of crap proprietary code that only causes them to have to redo it, over and over and over again.

Sure the Mac isn't perfect and they do still have some problems, but if they had the resources that Microsoft has, (and the billions of people coding for it outside of Microsoft,) then they would probably have a much better operating system. Instead those people would rather bash it, even though it's a much better all around operating system and the vast majority of important programs already come with it, such as it's developer package which gives you the same tools to totally rebuild the operating system that they used when they built it in the first place. Sure some of the tools such as iPhoto, iTunes and Quicktime are aimed more at the home user than the business user, they do have software for it, such as Adobe's award winning multimedia/photo applications which were originally designed for the Mac to begin with and then ported over to the PC, (I hear it's this way again too.) Office isn't the killer app that people think they need to do a total switch to Mac, they can do without it if they really wanted to. Sure they may not be interested in using NeoOffice, so what, Numbers isn't that bad and there has been Quicken for decades, Apple does PDF's naturally, and Keystone always has been better at presentations then Microsoft's version, so now were back to Word again, I don't know, I find Abiword works just fine for all my uses and needs and what's wrong with Thunderbird? They already use it on the PC anyways. At least most IT people I know do, along with Firebird, both of which are already available for the Mac and run quite nicely I might add.

When Apple releases a patch, you can pretty much assure that it's not going to crash the system if you install it, Microsoft is well known for those problems. In my last 5+ years of owning a Mac, the only times I have had a problem with it crashing, once due to a overheated processor in a powerbook and the other due to a faulty hard drive that went bonkers after the powerbook got knocked off the table and hit the floor while closed. (I blame that on the cheap toshiba hard drives they are using in them. As far as the overheated processor, that was due to smoke getting in the powerbook and caking itself up inside it along with the utter lack of any real fans in it.)

Sure earlier versions of Mac OS X had problems talking to Windows computers, but then again, so what, just get rid of the Windows systems and replace them with 100% Apple systems and you don't have that problem, or get rid of them and replace them with Linux machines, neither of which had any problems talking to each other since both use standards based technology and their both at their core, Unix, unlike Windows, which has multiple layers on top of that core.

Sure Apple is not without faults and has problems with security, but then again, none of Apple's servers have ever crashed due to a virus either. Contrary to popular belief, there are viruses in the wild for Apple's systems, outdated as they may be, it's just that Apple fixed the ones that were of any real threat before people took advantage of them, all without screwing up the rest of the system in the process. The vulnerabilities that are still there are being worked on and can be patched if Apple thinks it's going to pose much of threat for it's operating systems. I think it odd that the only way a hacker could do anything to a Mac was for the person to turn off the firewall on the Mac first in the latest Hacker convention. A properly configured firewall on a Mac isn't all that hard to set up, unlike what it says in this article, (although I will mention that I'm not privy to how it works on their server operating systems,) but on the mainstream version of the operating system, it's a matter of a few clicks in the System control panel to secure the Mac as well as a properly set up keychain and user account, settings that you have to do on the PC as well, only that there isn't a keychain on the PC to worry about, but when you set a person as a user on the Mac you don't have to worry about not being able to run software that has been given permission by an administrator, unlike in XP which never worked.

I can go on and on and on about the pluses over Windows in Apple's favor, but I can't think of but one for them, that is that they have a larger installed gaming base, based on crap technology called DirectX aimed at morons that can't figure out how to code in OpenGL. Also Apple has made some stupid design choices in it's latest round of Mac's but it wouldn't be the first time and if they would ever release their operating system to work on other computers, that's where they can ultimately kill off Windows. Everyones hardware will have to conform to Apple's standards for drivers before they can work with it, thus we end up with a lot more stable equipment. (Another of Microsoft's short comings.)

With Apple embracing IPTV and that being the future of audio/video communications, I look for more and more people to eventually sway over to it, if for no other reason than to get rid of the ever increasing cable bills they have. (I don't know about you but $200+ a month for a lackluster service is just absurd! Especially when you can get 3x+ the bandwidth and at least 2x the channels with the latest optical technology that the cable companies are lying about you actually getting in the first place when it's not.) By using standardized components it means more competition in the market place as companies are starting to fight to see who can give the most features for the same $ or cheaper. It may also mean fewer companies producing the products, but that only weeds out the garbage out there. The ones that produce the better equipment at the better price are the ones which will win out in the long run, as will ultimately the consumer since they will actually be getting something worth their hard earned dollar that is ever increasingly harder to come by these days.

Well I've rambled on enough about the reasons I see there is no reason not to switch to Mac's even in the corporate marketplace, outside of initial costs, there really isn't any reason not to do the switch and now is the best time of all, with the release of the spyware Windows released and called Vista. I don't know about your company, but if I were running it, that's not something I would want on my systems for another company or foreign power to be able to get access to a "secret key" that will allow them to spy on my top secret projects my company is working on. (Which is the reason even the U.S. Government has dropped Windows on it's mission critical machines and has refused to install Vista on any of them.)
Click to view DisabledTrucker's profile Member 230 posts since
Aug 1, 2007
26. Sep 16, 2007 8:54 AM in response to: lwdesign
Re: Analysis: Macs on the network, time to panic?
Quote:<hr />
I think it's high time Apple came out with, and promoted, an enterprise strategy, along with at least one inexpensive small tower model that can be easily opened and serviced by removing a few screws. Think of a cross between a Mac mini and a Mac Pro, possibly half the size of the current Mac Pros, with at least 4 RAM slots and one or two expansion card slots, all easily accessible. Make it inexpensive enough that corporations can justify the expense, and you'd have a wonderful dual-boot machine that would be easy to service. It would be a winner.

Then Apple should start heavily promoting its server solutions and come out with a blade system. That would show enterprise users that Apple is serious about injecting OS X into multi-platform business environments.

The positive note of this article is that the writer feels Macs are now such a growing force that IT managers can't afford to ignore them anymore. IT can no longer dictate what its employees use as there is too much of a groundswell of Mac adoption. This is GOOD news!

<hr />


Where have you been, Apple has had servers for at least a decade that I've paid any attention to. Hooking up an iMac with it's 24" monitor to them would be just as cost effective and even more so if they used the mini for those secretary's that only need to do word processing and play pogo while yahooing... Sure they will have to provide a monitor for those $600 computers as well as a keyboard and mouse bringing the total to about $1200, but then again they'd pay at least that for the same thing in Windows world too and be stuck with things they don't need for their employees to have access to. Such as the CD players and USB ports, just put the mini in a tiny locked cage under the desk and viola no more problems. Don't want them to have yahoo, don't install it and make their account a user account where they cant install it, problem solved. If they don't have a need for a rack system, they still have the Pro which also works just fine for server duties. (Although both are rather price prohibitive for any small business to actually afford, then again most small businesses can get away with using an iMac, once they come out with a Raid-5/6 drive bay that isn't also as cost prohibitive as are currently available, to attach to them for backups and file storage, since they lack storage space inside the iMacs for more than 1-2 HDD's and no real way to utilize the software Raid-5 capabilities of the operating system due to that fact.

You could attempt to argue that 1TB is more than enough storage for a small business but not if they are planning on keeping it should a crash occur or if they are working on any large files and need the space a 4-5TB Raid-5/6 array can provide. Such as with video production. Sure you can also say well they should be using a Pro, not if they are a small business just starting out they can't! I know many that can afford about $3-4K for a system, but not $10K+ for one, no matter how stable the systems are.

Don't get me wrong there's no reason Apple can't release a single processor version of their Pro unit, they can even still use the same case as the bigger brother as long as they leave the 4 HDD bays and room for at least 2 optical drives as well as reduce the memory slots. If for no other reason than to say we can do a "Me3" just like the rest of you and do it better! Surely Apple's Mac OS X Server doesn't require 2 processors to run on... Especially if they actually make use of the PCI-x slots that are filling up the boards these days at the expense of PCI slots, that the majority of the companies are still producing cards for. They may even find they can push more of their Samsung made overpriced monitors they'd so love to sell more of.
Click to view folklore's profile Member 379 posts since
Aug 9, 2005
27. Sep 16, 2007 11:25 AM in response to: DisabledTrucker
Re: Analysis: Macs on the network, time to panic?
Quote:<hr />
I see there is no reason not to switch to Mac's even in the corporate marketplace, outside of initial costs, there really isn't any reason not to do the switch

<hr />


Even if the rest of your post is spot on, those initial costs are substantial, given that they include both the hardware and likely new software. And those costs are exponentially higher if there are any custom applications that have to be ported.
Click to view piccologato's profile New Member 74 posts since
Feb 12, 2007
28. Sep 16, 2007 7:16 PM in response to: folklore
Re: Analysis: Macs on the network, time to panic?
Cost??? OMG! Its self fulfilling prophecy.

1st: Its been proven time and again pound for pound macs are cheaper and cost less to mainting.
2nd; Software. The amount of money that would be saved if companies got away from MS's draconian licensing fees an just got away from MS Office altogether and supported open standard suites
Ugh! It is literally doublespeak. I just hope the world wakes up.

I've met so many people that went PC to Mac and were extremely happy and have heard of no one that switched to PC from Mac and has happy (except that guy a couple of years ago that it turned out was paid to say and do it.

gato
Click to view folklore's profile Member 379 posts since
Aug 9, 2005
29. Sep 16, 2007 11:24 PM in response to: piccologato
Re: Analysis: Macs on the network, time to panic?
Quote:<hr />
Cost??? OMG! Its self fulfilling prophecy.

1st: Its been proven time and again pound for pound macs are cheaper and cost less to mainting.
2nd; Software. The amount of money that would be saved if companies got away from MS's draconian licensing fees an just got away from MS Office altogether and supported open standard suites
Ugh! It is literally doublespeak. I just hope the world wakes up.

I've met so many people that went PC to Mac and were extremely happy and have heard of no one that switched to PC from Mac and has happy (except that guy a couple of years ago that it turned out was paid to say and do it.

<hr />


I love my Macs. I've personally switched from 100% PC to 100% Mac over the past four years at home.

But if I were an enterprise-level IT director, and wanted to switch my enterprise to Mac, I'd have to:

1. Buy new hardware.
2. Buy new software.
3. Train all my technical staff how to work with the Mac OS and hardware.
4. Have any custom applications either rebuilt from the ground up or ported to the Mac.
5. Buy a support contract from a local Mac shop, probably several different local shops if I have multiple locations because Apple's support just doesn't measure up.
6. Train all the company's staff how to use the Mac.
7. Somehow fix file incompatibility problems, since my users will demand to be able to collaborate with their clients, contractors, suppliers, etc, who all use Windows.

Each one of those things is a cost. Some more substantial than others. How do you justify those costs to the CEO?

Of all of those, #7 is easily the deal breaker. One could work the numbers and might could justify the cost of the other items to the CEO. But not being able to work with the rest of the world is just a deal breaker. I realize that the MS Office alternatives are getting better all the time, but they simply are not 100%. Similar problems occur with other Mac alternatives of PC software, and other PC software simply does not have a Mac equivalent. And in today's world, collaboration is a must.

Many Mac-hating IT pros have an irrational reaction to the Mac. Others have actually added up the costs and decided it's not worth the benefits.

Make no mistake - I'm not a Mac hater. But I'm not convinced that switching to the Mac platform is a smart decision for most enterprises.