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21 Replies Last post: Nov 22, 2007 3:19 AM by MacCheetah3   1 2 Previous Next
Click to view MW Forums's profile New Member
MW Forums
12,220 posts since
Aug 2, 2004
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Nov 21, 2007 10:30 AM

Under pressure, T-Mobile unlocks iPhone in Germany

T-Mobile in Germany will sell an unlocked version of Apple's iPhone while it fights a legal challenge from rival Vodafone. more
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Click to view KPO'M's profile Enthusiast
KPO'M
1,172 posts since
Nov 29, 2001
1. Nov 21, 2007 1:44 PM in response to: MW Forums
Re: Under pressure, T-Mobile unlocks iPhone in Ger
As discussed in the other thread, this isn't much of a concession, since I highly doubt T-Mobile is giving Apple a 600 subsidy. 200 is more typical, so if this went for 599, or even 699-750, it would be "good faith," but this clearly is an attempt to meet the minimum requirements of the injunction while still fighting it. Let's see what happens in France next week.
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Click to view hagen's profile New Member
hagen
137 posts since
Mar 15, 2005
2. Nov 21, 2007 2:00 PM in response to: KPO'M
Re: Under pressure, T-Mobile unlocks iPhone in Ger
And why would they do more than the minimum required? I want to upgrade my Mac, are you going to give me $300 to help me?
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Click to view zensunni's profile Member
zensunni
221 posts since
Sep 11, 2004
3. Nov 21, 2007 2:21 PM in response to: KPO'M
Re: Under pressure, T-Mobile unlocks iPhone in Ger
Quote:<hr />
this clearly is an attempt to meet the minimum requirements of the injunction while still fighting it. Let's see what happens in France next week.

<hr />


Hopefully they'll be found to be in contempt of the injunction, since making it available for 999 is just as silly as offering it for 9,999--the price is completely unreasonable and against the spirit of the law.
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Click to view JakeB's profile New Member
JakeB
71 posts since
Sep 12, 2006
4. Nov 21, 2007 2:40 PM in response to: hagen
Re: Under pressure, T-Mobile unlocks iPhone in Ger
Quote:<hr />
And why would they do more than the minimum required? I want to upgrade my Mac, are you going to give me $300 to help me?

<hr />


Words 'false analogy' mean anything to ya? Following poster is right, might as well offer the phone for nine million and ninety nine euros.

What gets me, is all the Average Joe's arguing for the companies who're screwing them. Listen, buddy, it's in ALL our interests as CONSUMERS that the iPhone be offered unlocked so we can choose a competitive plan.
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Click to view KPO'M's profile Enthusiast
KPO'M
1,172 posts since
Nov 29, 2001
5. Nov 21, 2007 2:54 PM in response to: JakeB
Re: Under pressure, T-Mobile unlocks iPhone in Ger
Quote:<hr />

Words 'false analogy' mean anything to ya? Following poster is right, might as well offer the phone for nine million and ninety nine euros.

What gets me, is all the Average Joe's arguing for the companies who're screwing them. Listen, buddy, it's in ALL our interests as CONSUMERS that the iPhone be offered unlocked so we can choose a competitive plan.

<hr />



Yes, that also sums up my point. Basically, if that's all the European law is, then it really isn't that different from what we have here, and residents of Europe might want to think twice about the worth of the laws they actually have.

GSM networks are set up under the premise of openness. Any phone that operates on the same frequency should work on any network, and that's why the SIM was created as a removable module. The stated reason for allowing subsidy-locking (the original term for SIM locking) was that carriers were subsidizing the purchase price of a phone in exchange for a fixed-term contract, and thus wanted to make sure that they recouped their costs. It seems fair enough. The subsidy varies based on the length of the contract and initial cost of the phone, but 200 is pretty typical in Europe for a 2-year contract. What T-Mobile and Apple are doing is turning the concept of SIM-locking on its head. They are basically saying that, even though the phone isn't sold with a subsidy, T-Mobile wants an entire year's worth of revenue (the basic iPhone plan is 49/month there) for the privilege of buying the phone unlocked. That's unprecedented, and if Apple gets away with it, then other manufacturers of hot phones will try it, too. The iPhone wasn't the first phone with all this hype, and it won't be the last. However, if this pricing starts to become the norm, then we as consumers are worse off for it.
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Click to view piccologato's profile New Member
piccologato
74 posts since
Feb 12, 2007
6. Nov 21, 2007 2:55 PM in response to: JakeB
Re: Under pressure, T-Mobile unlocks iPhone in Ger
Its all in the viewpoint. A few points of mine.

1: don't buy it if you think its not fair. Oh boo hoo I can't get an unlocked iphone. Its not like they have a monoploly. Apple is a peon in the cell phone market.

2: I buy mac products for a premium because they're great. The thing is they make a nice profit, but they probably spend more on R&D to then come out with even greater products.

3. The reverse (an analogy here) is the PC market in which profit margins are often so small that in order for companies to survive they must create and sell crap. Lets not make Apple into one of those companies.

gato
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Click to view MacCheetah3's profile Old Hand
MacCheetah3
6,548 posts since
Apr 2, 2001
7. Nov 21, 2007 3:11 PM in response to: JakeB
Re: Under pressure, T-Mobile unlocks iPhone in Ger
Hi
It is now being offered to certain parties. You got part of what you want. Go bring out the champagne.

As a note, of course, the unlocked iPhone is not going to be offered at the same price as the locked version. If T-Mobile / Apple put the unlocked price somewhat higher than what is needed to continue enticing buyers to the locked version, that's their choice and they obviously feel it is the best one.

Apple MacBook (Black) 2.16GHz C2D, 2GB, 160GB (5.4K), DL-SD + 16GB iPod touch ? Debug Computer Services http://www.click2debug.com
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Click to view MacCheetah3's profile Old Hand
MacCheetah3
6,548 posts since
Apr 2, 2001
8. Nov 21, 2007 3:18 PM in response to: MW Forums
Re: Under pressure, T-Mobile unlocks iPhone in Ger
Hi
Somehow I feel the urge to quote a certain elderly man, "Well, you can wish in one hand and crap in the other and see which gets filled first." Some got their wish but are now wishing for something else or some just have unreasonable ( unrealistic? ) wishes.

Have fun!

Apple MacBook (Black) 2.16GHz C2D, 2GB, 160GB (5.4K), DL-SD + 16GB iPod touch ? Debug Computer Services http://www.click2debug.com
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Click to view KPO'M's profile Enthusiast
KPO'M
1,172 posts since
Nov 29, 2001
9. Nov 21, 2007 3:20 PM in response to: piccologato
Re: Under pressure, T-Mobile unlocks iPhone in Ger
Quote:<hr />
Its all in the viewpoint. A few points of mine.

1: don't buy it if you think its not fair. Oh boo hoo I can't get an unlocked iphone. Its not like they have a monoploly. Apple is a peon in the cell phone market.

2: I buy mac products for a premium because they're great. The thing is they make a nice profit, but they probably spend more on R&D to then come out with even greater products.

3. The reverse (an analogy here) is the PC market in which profit margins are often so small that in order for companies to survive they must create and sell crap. Lets not make Apple into one of those companies.


<hr />


1) Another option is to buy it and unlock it, which is what I've done.
2) and 3) It isn't as if Apple doesn't have a tidy profit margin selling it for $600 in Europe even with a 2-year contract. The $900 premium T-Mobile is charging for the unlocked version is just their way of thumbing their noses at the court order. At the end of the day, consumers are still stuck choosing wireless carriers based on the phones that they sell, rather than based on who offers the best actual wireless service.

What's next? Will Apple strike a deal with AT&T when they release a hot new Mac or browser so that it adds all these new features, but works only if you subscribe to AT&T DSL? That's basically what they did with the iPhone.
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Click to view KPO'M's profile Enthusiast
KPO'M
1,172 posts since
Nov 29, 2001
10. Nov 21, 2007 3:26 PM in response to: MacCheetah3
Re: Under pressure, T-Mobile unlocks iPhone in Ger
Quote:<hr />
Hi
Somehow I feel the urge to quote a certain elderly man, "Well, you can wish in one hand and crap in the other and see which gets filled first." Some got their wish but are now wishing for something else or some just have unreasonable ( unrealistic? ) wishes.

Have fun!

<hr />


Since 399 is a reasonable price with a 2-year contract, and just about every other phone goes for 200 more without a contract than it does with a 2-year contract, then 200 seems like a reasonable premium for the unlocked iPhone, possibly a little more given the newness of the phone and fresh demand, but 600 seems unreasonable. All the phone-specific value of the iPhone should be and is already built into the 399 selling price, which is at the high-end for a carrier-locked phone.
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Click to view kwill's profile Member
kwill
364 posts since
Jun 4, 2004
11. Nov 21, 2007 3:53 PM in response to: KPO'M
Re: Under pressure, T-Mobile unlocks iPhone in Ger
The obvious purpose of the pricing is to help consumers see the value in purchasing the phone WITH the contract. Rationalizing how much the unlocked phone SHOULD be is pointless. In fact, since it was meant to alienate the average person, it is actually about 9000 less than it could have been.
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Click to view Nobody's profile New Member
Nobody
58,347 posts since
Oct 18, 2007
12. Nov 21, 2007 4:08 PM in response to: MW Forums
Re: Under pressure, T-Mobile unlocks iPhone in Germany
Vodafone shouts about iPhone, but in reality they don't want a trend to be started. This is IMHO the point that very few speak about ! They don't want a plan that gves you free internet access 24h for a flat fee ! They are making too much money now ! In Italy they advertise a plan that for 89 euros gives you "free internet access". You subscribe and realize that that only goes through WAP protocol and Vodafone portal: totally useless. If you want "nomal" internet access you have to pay extra.... And they dare to complain about the iPhone ! Of course, because people don't have a chance to fall into their plans....
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Click to view whitedog's profile Enthusiast
whitedog
915 posts since
Aug 9, 2004
13. Nov 21, 2007 4:43 PM in response to: MW Forums
Re: Under pressure, T-Mobile unlocks iPhone in Ger
I agree the excessive price of the unlocked iPhone is an incentive to hackers. You could ruin several locked iPhones for the price of a single unlocked one. Still, we should not be surprised that the service providers put more effort into cornering market share than on helping the customer. That's the nature of the "free" market. Which, even in Europe, is still relatively free - as the cell phone business demonstrates. And, as usual, the government serves as the referee when businesses appeal to the courts to resolve their differences.

Personally, I think all this ho-ha demonstrates a healthy dialectic at work. The noisy competition keeps the issues in the open where the pubic can see what's going on and, when it becomes necessary, compel their governments to intervene on their behalf. Counterintuitive as it may seem, the balance is maintained through this kind of (peaceful) conflict.

Don't anthropomorphize computers - They hate that.
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Click to view KPO'M's profile Enthusiast
KPO'M
1,172 posts since
Nov 29, 2001
14. Nov 21, 2007 4:49 PM in response to: kwill
Re: Under pressure, T-Mobile unlocks iPhone in Ger
Quote:<hr />
The obvious purpose of the pricing is to help consumers see the value in purchasing the phone WITH the contract. Rationalizing how much the unlocked phone SHOULD be is pointless. In fact, since it was meant to alienate the average person, it is actually about 9000 less than it could have been.

<hr />


How exactly is having a contract with T-Mobile DE vs any other German carrier "worth" 600? That's essentially what they are saying. It's in T-Mobile's interests to keep as many iPhone customers with their service as possible, and this is their way of saying it. I don't necessarily blame them, since they gave Apple a rich contract. That said, I do blame Apple, since they are the ones who came up with this business model. It's great for their shareholders, but lousy for consumers, and sets a bad precedent, since it bundles a specific provider of a commodity (i.e. wireless service) with a desirable product.
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