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46 Replies Last post: May 21, 2008 8:54 PM by Barneski   Go to original post 1 2 3 4 Previous Next
Click to view George76's profile Member 167 posts since
Dec 22, 2006
30. May 9, 2008 10:23 AM in response to: Grapho
Re: How Psystar’s computer measures up to a Mac
Grapho wrote:
Nothing killer on the iLife suite? Then you follow your assumption with "the only one I use is iTunes", well there you have it, you don't use it, so you think it has no value?

Funny that something I don't use has no value to me. Looking around my family, I can't imagine any of them would ever fire up Garage Band. There might be one or two who would attempt to make use of iWeb, iMovie or iDVD once in a while. iPhoto is the program that would probably be the most used by them (outside of iTunes). Waiting hours for iMovie to import even the shortest movie turned me off to the program. iDVD was extremely limited in what it would allow you to do.

I could say the same thing about Microsoft Office, yet some depend a lot on it, even thou I don't use it much particularly, and it's of little value to me. Actually iLife has a lot more value to me then Office, but I am not going to write Office off just because I use it very little.

And Office would have value to me. I'd much prefer a copy of iWork on a Mac than iLife, as I'd use Numbers and Pages on a regular basis. Who knows, it's possible the majority of Mac users would be better served with iWork instead of iLife. iLife just seems to be competing with all the throwaway apps that come preloaded on a PC (and people here like to complain about) and I'm not really convinced iLife apps really rise that far above the throwaway level.
Click to view Grapho's profile Enthusiast 1,137 posts since
Aug 30, 2004
31. May 9, 2008 10:24 AM in response to: Jim Galbraith
Re: How Psystar’s computer measures up to a Mac
I am not sure how many employees Apple currently has on their payroll, I know that Apple has had pretty good marks as far as customer service and resolving peoples issues for some time now. Why give all the support up in exchange of a small, inexperienced mediocre Psystar team.

I know that even with my MacPro, I can't simply go to Fry's electronics and pick up the latest and greatest video card and simply plug it in. So how can this be expected from Psystar?

Nope, I am sticking with Apple.
Click to view Grapho's profile Enthusiast 1,137 posts since
Aug 30, 2004
32. May 9, 2008 10:38 AM in response to: George76
Re: How Psystar’s computer measures up to a Mac
George76 wrote:
Grapho wrote:
Nothing killer on the iLife suite? Then you follow your assumption with "the only one I use is iTunes", well there you have it, you don't use it, so you think it has no value?

Funny that something I don't use has no value to me. Looking around my family, I can't imagine any of them would ever fire up Garage Band. There might be one or two who would attempt to make use of iWeb, iMovie or iDVD once in a while. iPhoto is the program that would probably be the most used by them (outside of iTunes). Waiting hours for iMovie to import even the shortest movie turned me off to the program. iDVD was extremely limited in what it would allow you to do.

I could say the same thing about Microsoft Office, yet some depend a lot on it, even thou I don't use it much particularly, and it's of little value to me. Actually iLife has a lot more value to me then Office, but I am not going to write Office off just because I use it very little.

And Office would have value to me. I'd much prefer a copy of iWork on a Mac than iLife, as I'd use Numbers and Pages on a regular basis. Who knows, it's possible the majority of Mac users would be better served with iWork instead of iLife. iLife just seems to be competing with all the throwaway apps that come preloaded on a PC (and people here like to complain about) and I'm not really convinced iLife apps really rise that far above the throwaway level.

Well as opposed to you, I do use iMovie, iPhoto (now a lot more with my Apple TV), iDVD, and even Garage Band. The only component I don't use is iWeb since I am a web developer.

You do have a point, maybe Apple ought to through in iWorks, but the price is still pretty accessible even if you need to buy it on your own.

My point is that iLife dose indeed have value for a large number of users. All you are saying is that you and your family are not the creative types. In contrast me and my brothers, how also happen to use Macs, do get a lot of milage from iLife. Even my wife that is probably the least artistic person I know loves iPhoto big time. Her family, who are finally getting it to using Macs are thrilled by iLife and it was one of the major switching points.

Have you messed around with Garage Band at all? Its fun, even for the musically challenged, like my self.
Click to view wgood's profile Enthusiast 747 posts since
Nov 11, 2004
33. May 9, 2008 2:57 PM in response to: Macworld
Re: How Psystar's computer measures up to a Mac
So now that it's tested, can we start a new "Will it Crush?" YouTube phenomenon?


2Ghz Core 2 Duo MacBook • Airport Extreme (Gigabit) • 8GB iPod touch
http://www.wesg.ca - Macs and More
Click to view Grapho's profile Enthusiast 1,137 posts since
Aug 30, 2004
34. May 9, 2008 3:14 PM in response to: wgood
Re: How Psystar's computer measures up to a Mac
I think you mean, will it "blend".
Click to view Wondercow's profile Member 274 posts since
Jul 21, 2004
35. May 9, 2008 9:09 PM in response to: Grapho
Re: How Psystar's computer measures up to a Mac
No, I'm pretty sure he means crush. It's in reference to the Will it Blend series, but he wants to crush it, hence the use of the phrase "new phenomenon."
Click to view Grapho's profile Enthusiast 1,137 posts since
Aug 30, 2004
36. May 10, 2008 6:10 AM in response to: Wondercow
Re: How Psystar's computer measures up to a Mac
I guess I need to catch up with my YouTube. :)
Click to view robco's profile New Member 174 posts since
Jan 13, 2005
37. May 10, 2008 12:19 PM in response to: Macworld
Re: How Psystar's computer measures up to a Mac

I still love the "I don't see..." yes, that's true, each of us is different. I don't see why Bluetooth is such a big deal. I sync my cell phone a couple times a year and that's it. I never use the built-in iSight (which the Mac Pros don't have either). My PC is connected to a wired network, I have no use for WiFi on a desktop - I love it on my MacBook. I rarely use iLife, and only iPhoto at that. I guess I'm not a real Mac user. We all are different and use our machines for different things. The Wintel platform, for all its faults, is very adaptable. The Mac... not so much. There's either a Mac that fits your needs or there isn't.

I'm glad to see the gaming stats improved at least, and if they got a PC card working, that's a good sign. That's one area where the iMac is severly lacking. I don't see how Apple can tout environmentalism when they only make non-upgradeable, non-modular, throwaway computers for consumers. The entire machine must be tossed out (recycled?) when it's time to upgrade. Yikes. There are those of us who don't want to buy a new machine to upgrade the graphics, put in a Blu-Ray drive, etc. (and don't want messy external peripherals all over the place, ruining the aesthetic behind the iMac in the first place).

As for EULAs, how many folks here can claim they've never violated a EULA? How many have actually read the darn things? They're so convoluted, you've probably violated at least one without knowing it. It's not as if Apple doesn't offer OS X for retail sale - they are being compensated. There is also the case that installing OS X, even on a non-Apple machine is fair use.

There are upside and downsides to every platform. The upside to Apple's limited offerings is great support and stability. But the downside is that it keeps OS X limited to a niche market - the market for whom Apple's hardware is sufficient.

Click to view Podesta's profile New Member 23 posts since
Oct 30, 2004
38. May 12, 2008 11:08 AM in response to: Macworld
Re: How Psystar's computer measures up to a Mac
I do not think that Psystar will just continue merrily along its way. Considering the different kinds of fraud involved, there could be federal action ahead, including seizure of stock from their facility and inquiries into their credit card processing and sales in interstate commerce. Based on what I have read, I am expecting a 'naive young fellows' defense based on the Pedraza's ages. They will claim not to know that there is anything legally wrong with what they are doing. (Right!) Even though review sites are getting units, very few regular customers seem to have taken delivery of Psystar computers. This could still turn out to be a pyramid scheme. One heavily promoted by the Mac blogosphere.

Furthermore, I find it puzzling that some people simultaneously claim to approve of Apple products and to want to destroy the company by supporting the likes of Psystar. Cognitive dissonance, indeed.
Click to view Barneski's profile New Member 10 posts since
May 12, 2008
39. May 12, 2008 6:46 AM in response to: Podesta
Re: How Psystar's computer measures up to a Mac
It's been interesting to see the vehemence of some of the anti-Psystar posts here. I cannot fathom why anyone would care that another company - big, small or whatever - is producing or selling equipment capable of running a particular OS. It's fine if your preference is for the Apple computer and for the company's supposedly fantastic support. You love them, so feel free to buy Apple. But why would you care that someone ELSE buys a PC from a different company to run the Mac OS?


My take on it as an owner of a couple of old Mac models and purchaser of several Mac OS's dating back to System 7 is that I owe the company nothing and the company owes me nothing. I don't care if they condone what I do or how I use their OS. I last bought a Mac around 8 years ago, and it is probably the last Mac I ever will buy. I don't think they're particularly bad computers (except for games, obviously), but I've put together PCs of my own. There's no support, but I've never needed it. The next computer I build, still a year or two away, is going to run Mac OS as well as Windows, regardless of whether Apple is happy with this arrangement. I don't need them to be.


As far as Apple hardware goes, I'm really not bothered either way about it. Some of it looks nice, I suppose. Not nice enough to justify the higher price tag, though, and I'm more interested in seeing that cost and performance bear some relation to each other. Not always easy with a Mac. I dislike being overcharged for completely ordinary hardware that I know is a mishmash of components manufactured by other companies - the CPU, motherboards, drives etc. Just like any Wintel PC. I've got no interest at all in minis or in all-in-one PCs, any more than I like boomboxes, VCR TVs, midi hi-fi systems, or B&O gear. They all share the same essential weaknesses: form over function and a lack of flexibility - which you're especially going to notice when the monitor blows on your iMac and you have to send the whole thing in for repair or get a new computer.


What I do like from Apple is the Mac OS. I know it can run on non-Apple hardware, and so my next PC is going to run OSX. Meanwhile, concerning Psystar's foray into the market, the questions that come to mind are these (I think they'll be important if another company comes along to do this, and does it better):


Some claim it's illegal. In that case, what law is being broken? I don't see any piracy issues, copyright issues, or breach of contract issues. Does anyone see otherwise, and if so, how?


What legal standing does the OSX EULA actually have? (For an answer, you might need to take it country by country).


When you buy a Mac computer or a Mac OS, at which point did the EULA (removing your right to run the OS on a non-Apple PC) come into effect? At the point of purchase? When you opened the box at home? When someone - possibly you, then again, possibly not - clicked an "I Agree" button on the screen?


I admit I haven't paid close attention, but so far, I've seen nothing in the way of an official comment from Apple concerning Psystar. It's been nearly a month. Have they really said nothing in public about this? Is that responsible?


And what must be the most important question: Apple previously allowed clones to be sold. They set a precedent for the Mac OS to run on non-Apple machines. And they now sell Apple computers that can run both OSX and Windows, and have made this a selling point. So how are they going to persuade a moderately intelligent judge that their OS is so special that it may only be allowed to run on their hardware, AND that their computers are so special that no other computer should be permitted to run OSX? They've had it both ways in the marketplace already.

Click to view Podesta's profile New Member 23 posts since
Oct 30, 2004
40. May 12, 2008 11:07 AM in response to: Barneski
Re: How Psystar's computer measures up to a Mac
Well, I think it is generally true that thieves see nothing wrong with their thefts. However, their selfishness does not make them right. It just shows they are blinded by their avarice.
Click to view palane's profile Member 215 posts since
Nov 18, 2004
41. May 12, 2008 11:13 AM in response to: robco
Re: How Psystar's computer measures up to a Mac

Robco – you
make some interesting points. Regarding the use of WiFi for a desktop, the
phone jack for the DSL modem (or cable jack) isn’t always in the same room as
the office. In my house, the only phone jack is upstairs in our master bedroom.
So, linking up a dekstop to the net means either running a long phone card
between rooms or doing it via WiFi.

“I don't see how Apple can tout environmentalism when they only make
non-upgradeable, non-modular, throwaway computers for consumers. The entire
machine must be tossed out (recycled?) when it's time to upgrade. Yikes.”

Macs hold their resale value quite well. There are usually sufficient
improvements in the base hardware (bus speed; WiFi moving from B to G to N),
that the cost of a massive upgrade of an older computer isn’t worth the trouble.
It’s good value to sell the older computer and buy a new one. Plus, you get all
the software updated as part of the deal.

“As for EULAs, how many folks here can claim they've never violated a EULA?
How many have actually read the darn things? They're so convoluted, you've
probably violated at least one without knowing it. It's not as if Apple doesn't
offer OS X for retail sale - they are being compensated. There is also the case
that installing OS X, even on a non-Apple machine is fair use.”

I think “Don’t install this on a non-Apple computer” is fairly clear. With
regards to your second point, Apple doesn’t make enough money selling retail
copies of OS X to pay for the development. That’s the clone model. It was tried
and it failed.

BB

Click to view Barneski's profile New Member 10 posts since
May 12, 2008
42. May 12, 2008 8:32 PM in response to: Podesta
Re: How Psystar's computer measures up to a Mac
Who is stealing what?
Click to view Podesta's profile New Member 23 posts since
Oct 30, 2004
43. May 13, 2008 1:39 AM in response to: Barneski
Re: How Psystar's computer measures up to a Mac
You have said you are planning to install a hacked version of OS X on a non-Apple computer in the next year. (You also said you never intend to buy an actual Apple computer, again.) So, you will be among those failing to compensate Apple for its operating system. That is a form of conversion for one's own use, as we say in the law. In the vernacular, people say theft.
Click to view Barneski's profile New Member 10 posts since
May 12, 2008
44. May 13, 2008 6:41 AM in response to: Podesta
Re: How Psystar's computer measures up to a Mac

Wrong on both the small and the big points, I'm afraid, Podesta. You say 'You have said you are
planning to install a hacked version of OS X on a non-Apple computer in
the next year.'

I said it's still a year or two away. Far more importantly I said nothing about hacked versions of OSX.

'You also said you never intend to buy an actual Apple
computer, again.'

That's correct. I can find the parts that make up a computer a lot cheaper than Apple provides them, and they will all be the parts that I want and that I chose. Meanwhile, for its other customers, Apple can continue to make couterintuitive choices with its machines, as it did with the G4 desktop that I own (It has no direct mic. input; there's bags of space inside the beautifully neat enclosure but extremely limited upgradeability; awful access to parts like the hard drive and the CD/DVD drives, and a cooling system that got so noisy the computer was unusable until I ripped out the fans and put in some of my own. This is from the company that many will say gives you the best hardware. I hope they've upped their game since then.)

'So, you will be among those failing to compensate
Apple for its operating system. '

I don't follow you. I currently own three Apple operating systems that I paid full price for, in addition to a very early version of OSX that came bundled with my G4 in 2001, and have bought 2 new Apple computers at full retail price. If I get any of those old OS's to run on a PC I build, how does that constitute theft? And if I buy the latest version of OSX and run it on my home built PC, how is that theft? The company is paid for its operating system. Presumably, this is why they make it available in stores in exchange for cash.

What is it that makes Apple different? They sell hardware and they sell software like any other company. Even if they have created a "special" business model, surely back down here on Earth they have to follow the same market and competitive rules as anyone else, and if that puts a spike through their business plan, then so be it. Perhaps this is why they're so quiet about Hackintosh and Psystar.

Now, a simple question before you return your attention to calling me a thief. Is the OSX EULA legally binding? Across all markets? I've never read it, because it's irrelevant to my needs. But I doubt that it has any more legal validity than a roll of toilet paper.